Talk:Montgomery Fiske
Monkey Fist - the most dangerous villain? "Who here feels that Monkey Fist is the most serious, and therefore the most dangerous Villain? Ztyran 22:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Nationality Should his nationality be, "English?" Because he speaks with an English, Surrey accent. ( 12:05, January 9, 2013 (UTC)) : Hmm… a primer: : The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland '''is composed of the four countries '''England, Scotland, Wales '''and Northern Ireland '- England is just the largest and most populous of these sub-countries. Given the violent history of these islands, a surefire way to annoy Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish people is to call them English. It also leaves out those who are some mixture of the four. : '''Britain '''is the largest of the islands that make up the '''British Isles'. : The UK, England, Scotland etc '''are political entities. : '''England '''and the others are called "countries", because in the past they were separate nations, but they aren't any more. : Among them the only current nation-state with a UN seat so far is '''the United Kingdom. : To make matters more confusing, the adjective used to describe a citizen of the UK is "British". This works neatly in Scotland, England and Wales, but could cause some difficulty in Northern Ireland: while Unionists would probably be happy to be called British, Nationalists would probably prefer to be described as Irish, as they'd rather that Northern Ireland be part of Eire than the UK. : Some ''British people are also English. Many are not. Most British people speak (British) English, though many only speak it as a second language - even leaving aside those whose families have immigrated recently, there are areas where the dominant language is Welsh or Scots Gaelic. Not even the law and currency are universal across the nation - Scottish law is different from English/Welsh law, and Scotland has different issuing banks from England, although the currency of one should be acceptable in the other. Northern Ireland also has some differences in law and its own issuing banks. : '''Basic Rule of Thumb': when in doubt, say British/Briton/Britain unless you're actually sure you mean English/Englishman/England. : Now, all that said, "British" is indeed a nationality, albeit a broad-stroke one. Killigan could be considered "British". However I don't believe anything in canon specifically says that Monty Fiske is English or British, other than his accent. Even "Lord" is not specific to any one of those countries. In fact, missing from his canon episodes are the words: English, England, British, Britain, and *Montgomery*. So we are probably safest using the broader-stroke of "British". IMO. : Love Robin (talk) 13:35, January 9, 2013 (UTC) ::Very good analysis, and I agree. ::Mknopp (talk) 14:13, January 9, 2013 (UTC) {Moved by Mknopp to proper section.} It is understandable of your defintion of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but in England, there are different regions; for example: in Cornwall, the very South-West of England, people there consider to called them selves, "Cornish" as they once had their own language and also in plances such as Mnahceaster, Birmingham and the North of England the accents are different and most people in the United Kingdom would not define them selves as, "British", because Britian is a highly intergrated, poltiical union since the year: 1707 and I should know this because I live in London myself. Also, the main reason why I raise the previous question is because on Duff's page, it states he is a, "Scotsman", because of his clothing (Kilt) and accent. Also for Montgomery, he may not be human, but his accent is of Surrey of the South-West of England. Also, my questions are just a thought. ( 15:31, January 9, 2013 (UTC)) :You make some very good points. However, what you are referring to is ethnicity, not nationality. When I made the new character infoboxes I copied over the categories from the old box. In the old box it was called ethnicity. This however, led to quite a few problems as ethnicity is defined as, "a socially defined category based on common culture". This caused problems with people like Ron, who is a citizen of the United States, but is ethnically Jewish. And then even within the Jewish ethnicity there are ethnic groups. It was because of things like Ron and now, Monty that I changed the term from ethnicity. Something which is not easily defined or verifiable in the show, to nationality. Which is much easier as it really has little of nothing to do with what ethnicity you are, but what nation you are a legal citizen of. :For Ron, he is a legal citizen of the United States of America, thus his nationality if American, no matter that he is ethnically Jewish. The same goes for Monty, just because he is a member of an ethnic region of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, doesn't change the fact that he is a citizen of the United Kingdom. Your point about Duff being listed as a Scotsman is good because it means that we need to correct that on Duff's page. :Now, that being said. There is the issue of the proper demonym for a citizen of the United Kingdom. Every source that I have ever seen uses British. Even the official websites for the UK government use the term British as a demonym for its citizens. :If this isn't accurate, then please let us know what internationally recognized demonym is used for a citizen of the UK. :Thank you. :Mknopp (talk) 16:08, January 9, 2013 (UTC) {Moved by Mknopp to the proper section} Personally, I would state that I am a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther-Ireland because it is offically that. But because of the many cultural differences in the UK, many people (including myself) will define myself as, "English", because I live in London and the the English way of life well. Also, in Scotland and Wales, they have their own languages but they are not offical. Thank you. ( 16:16, January 9, 2013 (UTC)) :This is interesting. So, you are saying that the more common international demonym is English not British? You will have to forgive me. I am a typical American mutt, and as such I have been basically indoctrinated since birth that ethnicity doesn't matter as much as nationality. When someone asks a citizen of the USA what they are they will say American, and it doesn't matter if their ancestors were Scottish, German, Japanese, Jewish, or African. It is just something that is expected in this country is that you have a sense of nationality regardless of where your ancestors came from. I think that this makes it difficult for us to conceptualize of what you are talking about. Sure, someone might live in New York, but when they travel abroad they are American and don't really think a thing about it. :Again, thank you for the discussion. :Note: To comment in the proper section click the edit tag at the top of this section, not the edit tag below the comment. Yeah, it is a bit backwards, but it is the best we can do. :Mknopp (talk) 16:31, January 9, 2013 (UTC) Hmm… Within the United States, a person can be considered a resident of a particular state. A New Yorker, Texan, Floridian, Montanan or in Kim's (fanon) case, Coloradan. These distinctions are less important once one *leaves* the US and we all become "Americans". A conversation might revert back to where within ''America I'm from, but that is secondary to my nationality. In addition, I could have been BORN ''anywhere ''in the world, but once I moved to a new country and ''become a citizen there, my nationality is that of that country, my clothing and or accent notwithstanding. So the problem we're facing here in striving to remain *within canon*, is we cannot go beyond what is canon except in a few thin cases, such as citeable interviews by any of the creative team, and even then it has to not contradict what canon has provided. The problem then with Lord Monty Fiske is the show never once used words which might indicate where he was from. After all, he bankrupted his family fortune in his mad pursuits, so he may no longer be a resident of his home or birth nation. Even views of his castle (which Wade referred to as "his house") are devoid of locational clues, so ''it ''could be anywhere in the world, bought, rented, built, or moved to. As far as all that is known, his castle could have been in *Cambodia* as that was the only country mentioned in the show… not that I think it is, I'm just saying that in the absences of what the show gives us in all his episodes, we are best served with the broader label of "British", which itself is actually a presumption and not pinned by canon. Mind you, I have my own preferences, beliefs and what I subscribe to in many matters regarding KP, being a fan fic writer as I am, but here I have to set *me* aside from what the show gives us. Love Robin (talk) 02:15, January 10, 2013 (UTC) :I am really starting to question if nationality should even be in the info box, because as you said, so many character's nationalities cannot be known from what is presented in the show. :Mknopp (talk) 02:26, January 10, 2013 (UTC) (Moved by Mknopp to the proper section.) Sorry that I didn't reply sooner; I finnished my day at college for the weekend. Well, yes, I can understnad that many people will mistake that the United-Kingdom to be a country because it is the only political union in the world (apart from the Soviet Union) that constently has open borders for the past 300 years, therefore meaning that I can go to Scotland or Wales without being challenged for a passport. Overall, Scoland, England, Wales and Norther-Ireland may be in the United Kingdom, but they are still countries with different cultures. As for the nationalitiy, yes; I do beleive it would be advisable to find any support claims for the charaters in Kim Possible for the potential nationalities. Also, thank you for letting me express my concerns; I only raised them as on Dull's page, he is defined as a, "Scotsman"; therefore defining him as from Scotland and Scottish. I will be looking forwards to hearing from you again, soon ( 13:54, January 14, 2013 (UTC)) :This topic is now mostly moot since nationality has been removed from the character infobox. :Mknopp (talk) 19:49, January 17, 2013 (UTC) Name As much as it pains me to say, as I *really* like and personally subscribe to "Montgomery", a recent review of all his canon appearances reveals it was NEVER ONCE used by or about him. He has only ever been addressed as and by "Monty". This article needs to be renamed, and the wiki corrected throughout… Love Robin (talk) 13:35, January 9, 2013 (UTC) :Good catch Love Robin. With a community as old as this one it is sometimes hard to separate fanon from canon. We all appreciate the time and effort you put into making sure this wiki is canonically accurate. :I would say to give it a week for others to check this. If nobody can find any canonical evidence showing that "Montgomery" was used then all references to it should be stricken and "Monty" used in its place. :Mknopp (talk) 14:16, January 9, 2013 (UTC) Well, it has now been over a week and the naming policy has taken affect so I am going to change the names. Mknopp (talk) 19:50, January 17, 2013 (UTC)